tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post1545824151621342781..comments2024-03-28T11:04:36.401-07:00Comments on the prowling Bee: Our journey had advanced —Susan Kornfeldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-71872215301832893822023-09-17T20:11:15.733-07:002023-09-17T20:11:15.733-07:00It’s an “odd” fork, and to me that implies there i...It’s an “odd” fork, and to me that implies there is something that’s not what it seems, it’s just an apparent fork. If a fork usually implies choice, maybe the point is there isn’t really one. Maybe life vs. death is what Dickinson’s we (which I read as humanity) expect upon reaching this transition, but life is just redefined, we don’t die, we continue and all the gates (choices) are in fact one and the same. AMGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-37326739582634099902023-09-16T12:32:55.237-07:002023-09-16T12:32:55.237-07:00OED definitions of “awe”
1.a. 1175–1785: Fear, te...OED definitions of “awe”<br /><br />1.a. 1175–1785: Fear, terror, dread (without any element or mixture of reverence, respect, or wonder implied). Obsolete.<br /><br />1.b. 1400–present: Originally: a feeling of fear or dread, mixed with profound reverence, typically as inspired by God or the divine. Subsequently: a feeling of reverential respect, mixed with wonder or fear, typically as inspired by a person of great authority, accomplishments, etc., or (from the 18th century) by the power or beauty of the natural world. The main sense from the 17th century onwards.<br />Larry Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810899482852120751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-31690326768285996002023-09-16T07:37:39.027-07:002023-09-16T07:37:39.027-07:00Dylan's Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest...Dylan's Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest sounds a lot like Book of Revelations 21: 9-13, 21-25 (KJV), with God's seventh angel as Judas Priest (guide), and John, the Book's author, as Frankie Lee (guidee):<br /><br />"[9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last<br />plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.<br />[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city,<br />the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,<br />[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone,<br />clear as crystal;<br />[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names<br />written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:<br />[13] On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three<br />gates."<br />. . . . <br />[21] And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the<br />city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.<br />[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.<br />[23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did<br />lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.<br />[24] And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do<br />bring their glory and honour into it.<br />[25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.<br /><br />Dylan converted Jerusalem's twelve gates into 24 windows and God's twelve (male) angels into women, but he kept "that big house" ("eternity", "paradise") as bright as any sun".<br /><br />Dylan's 'Ballad' also rings of Dante's long journey to "Paradise" with Virgil as his guide.Larry Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810899482852120751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-64867157372018214452023-09-15T15:24:13.401-07:002023-09-15T15:24:13.401-07:00Perhaps ED had read “The Inferno”, or at least the...Perhaps ED had read “The Inferno”, or at least the first 4 of 34 cantos. Her Stanza 2 introduces “The Forest of the Dead” between “Us” and the “Cities”:<br /><br />“Our pace took sudden awe [terror, ED Lex]—<br />Our feet — reluctant — led —<br />Before — were Cities — but Between —<br />The Forest of the Dead —"<br /><br />Dante tells us in Canto IV of ‘The Inferno’:<br /><br />"We will descend now into the blind world," <br />Virgil said with uncertainty; <br />"I will go first, and you will follow me."<br />. . . . <br />“We stopped moving forward as he spoke, <br />But the crowd continued passing onward like a forest; <br />A forest, not of trees, but of thickly-crowded ghosts.”<br /><br />Canto IV describes the first level of Hell, known as “Limbo” because good people who lived before Christ, including his guide, Virgil, and babies born since then but unbaptized spend eternity there, the least horrible of Hell’s nine levels. <br />Larry Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810899482852120751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-4836434762620735602023-09-15T14:40:24.384-07:002023-09-15T14:40:24.384-07:00ED suggested two alternatives for Line 11, Stanza ...ED suggested two alternatives for Line 11, Stanza 3. All of ED’s editors have rejected her alternatives, but they shed light on her intentions: <br /><br />Stanza 3 as published:<br /><br />“Retreat — was out of Hope —<br />Behind — a Sealed Route —<br />Eternity's White Flag — Before —<br />And God — at every Gate —”<br /><br />Stanza 3 with Line 11 alternatives:<br /><br />“Retreat — was out of Hope —<br />Behind — a Sealed Route —<br />Eternity's cool Flag — in front —<br />And God — at every Gate —”<br /><br />A “cool Flag” does not suggest Wolff’s “surrender”, and “in front” clarifies that the flag was outside the gates.<br />Larry Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810899482852120751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-35957002423582113452023-09-15T14:27:31.979-07:002023-09-15T14:27:31.979-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Larry Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810899482852120751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-28450211199044374642023-09-14T17:46:34.237-07:002023-09-14T17:46:34.237-07:00You would think, but "Dickinson's Dante, ...You would think, but "Dickinson's Dante, to judge from her rare references . . . it is unlikely that she ever went further than the Vita Nuova in her reading of Dante." (Cambon 1966. Dante's Presence in American Literature 1966. Dante Studies, with the Annual Report of the Dante Society, No. 84: 27-50). <br /><br />ED did mention Beatrice and Dante in ‘A precious - mouldering pleasure-'tis’, F569:<br /><br />“When Sappho - was a living girl<br />And Beatrice wore<br />The Gown that Dante - deified - ” Larry Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810899482852120751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-11006900954162902642021-12-07T13:44:24.631-08:002021-12-07T13:44:24.631-08:00The idea of the poem talking about approaching dea...The idea of the poem talking about approaching death appeals to me. The way behind is sealed because you cannot go back in time. You can approach death with a companion but sooner or later you will reach a fork in the road and each must die their own death. In contrast to ED’s ideas of eternal union in other poems, here there seems no guarantee that the companions will make it to the same city on the other side of the forest of the dead. Robin Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06335324252360372642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-45343907449366468292020-08-30T07:35:34.601-07:002020-08-30T07:35:34.601-07:00The images of this poem are very evocative of Dant...The images of this poem are very evocative of Dante - cities and gates and paths of retreat cut off - and even the various gates in hell are navigable by god ( or god’s emissaries), b/c they were created by god. Maybe there are no forks in the path at this point - Dante had no choice but to go through hell (with god’s help) in order to reach paradise. Both Dante and ED would seem to suggest god is running the whole show regardless. Pphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01023162636086533197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-44233456998140905332017-03-28T12:04:15.583-07:002017-03-28T12:04:15.583-07:00Yes, Dylan's image of the house resonates with...Yes, Dylan's image of the house resonates with Dickinson's in I dwell in Possibility, A fairer house than Prose.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16278732161795557634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-7833405597966372112015-03-18T05:36:13.769-07:002015-03-18T05:36:13.769-07:00ED gives no description of the second path. Her po...ED gives no description of the second path. Her poem leads us through death to the Cities where god is at every Gate, an image if rapture, not at all frightening, beautiful and ineffable. The undescribed path, where does that lead? Maybe by an absence of describing it ED is intimating that it leads to a vanishing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-45266368335831864702014-07-19T09:22:28.438-07:002014-07-19T09:22:28.438-07:00As to the "hollow sameness" Wolff writes...As to the "hollow sameness" Wolff writes, "all have experienced the same nightmare, paradoxically isolated while they move in undifferentiated unison... . They have provided no company for one another, offered no comfort or reassurance to one another, neither rejoiced with others nor sorrowed for others. ... and "mute anonymity of this ghostly group that moves toward doom in dumb accord, like a row of puppets." <br /><br />Wolff, a prominent Am. Lit. scholar and Prof. of Humanities at MIT, shows here how much excavating one can do...<br /><br />I've been thinking of this poem, too, lately. The second line says the group has 'almost' come to the fork. From there they can see distant cities, but to get there they have to cross the Forest of the Dead. It is sounding to me as if it were a reflection as one draws near the end of life. You have to cross through the land of the dead (literally, perhaps, cemeteries; but perhaps also just the fact of being dead -- as in those poems where the dead remain in their tombs or coffins for eons). <br /><br />I wonder if the white flags aren't symbols of purity and eternity. God being at every gate is a reminder that some divine presence surrounds -- but can never be known from this side of the fork.<br /><br /> Susan Kornfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-86884895393101215722014-07-15T09:13:46.262-07:002014-07-15T09:13:46.262-07:00Thank you for your further thoughts. So enriching...Thank you for your further thoughts. So enriching to read all these individual journeys into the poems. I don’t see, though, a ‘hollow sameness’ or ‘erosion of identity’ in the poem, unless the ‘forest of the dead’ is where she finds this. I haven’t really integrated that line into my reading of the poem. Clearly, Dickinson prized mystery. The wonderful thing about poetic images is that they keep working on you. I’ve been living with the White Flag of Eternity for the last two days. I no longer find anything sinister in those last images. But I don’t find joy either. Maybe just awe at the mystery. I am now wondering if the triumph/surrender co-existence is meant to describe Eternity or the traveler or both. Was not death for Dickinson both triumph and surrender? Riverwomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03302739221107883656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-4254190542621637942014-07-14T13:42:49.551-07:002014-07-14T13:42:49.551-07:00I recently got Cynthia Wolff's Emily Dickinson...I recently got Cynthia Wolff's Emily Dickinson biography. She had this to say about this poem:"At first, the situation described in the poem appears clear; yet as soon as the reader attempts to formulate a coherent image of the event that is being described, the obstinate paradox of virtually every significant mapping element in the verse frustrates the most persistent effort." I would have to agree!<br /><br />As to the white flag, she makes, I think, an interesting point: The "term" attached to Eternity can't be a temporal one but rather a legal one. In this case the terms would have to do with the "covenant of faith" and being saved. Each person who has entered into this covenant must surrender before entering God's eternal cities. Wolff goes further: "It is a surrender that reiterates the loss of self first experienced in the act of conversion ... and its effects have begun to be seen in the hollow sameness of the creatures whose fateful 'journey' is traced in this poem, for an appalling erosion of human identity is already under way" (337-8). Grim, eh?<br /><br />You bring up an interesting point that I don't think I considered: the shift to battle terminology with the "retreat" and "white flags". Perhaps, in answer to your question and leaning on Wolff, there is no retreat from the surrender that surely lies ahead. <br /><br />All that being said, I want to read the poem the way Anonymous did with the white banners signifying nothing more than eternity and God being at every gate cause for joy. <br /><br />Susan Kornfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-20598433932976342412014-07-14T11:38:45.455-07:002014-07-14T11:38:45.455-07:00I think the fork in the road is most probably mean...I think the fork in the road is most probably meant to simply indicate that fork which leads for some to death/eternity while others continue on with life. Although the City of God, or perhaps cities, lies ahead, humans must first pass through the wilderness of death. Here is where the poem gets most interesting to me. Suddenly, the metaphor shifts from one of travel to one of battle. The travelers (humankind) are cut off from the rear and cannot escape. Death is inevitable. The last two lines seem full of ambiguity. God seems almost the enemy, blocking (or guarding) every gate, omnipresent but in a rather sinister sense. And the White Flag of Eternity? That image is worth a whole essay. Can God both conquer and at the same time wave a white flag of surrender? That’s cause for thought. Riverwomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03302739221107883656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-27786576756006392672013-06-04T12:18:05.865-07:002013-06-04T12:18:05.865-07:00Could "odd Fork" denote a fork with thre...Could "odd Fork" denote a fork with three tines (birth, life, death or life, sickness, death or life, purgatory, heaven?) instead of a "even Fork" with two tines? Or, "odd fork" denote a fork in a an unconventional sense?Zefirinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826052577521342639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-66395093971474059202013-06-04T10:48:30.624-07:002013-06-04T10:48:30.624-07:00Life is behind them, not before: "Retreat — w...Life is behind them, not before: "Retreat — was out of Hope — / Behind — a Sealed Route —". There is no indication that one person goes on and another goes back. Even if there were, this would not constitute a fork. A road does not fork simply because a traveller on it turns back. A fork offers a choice of two forward directions; in this instance, two ways of going, once life is no longer possible.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-32077368500757101802013-06-04T09:09:54.940-07:002013-06-04T09:09:54.940-07:00I really like the idea of "Before" meani...I really like the idea of "Before" meaning a temporal before ... but then Dickinson says the route "behind" them was closed and sealed, and that Eternity is "before" them. Consequently I think she is using the term geographically. Susan Kornfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-73345270381432900632013-06-03T23:50:10.642-07:002013-06-03T23:50:10.642-07:00If you see the pronoun 'our' representing ...If you see the pronoun 'our' representing two individuals, then the life/death fork works well. In this case, the journey between two individuals (potentially friends) advances when one of them passes away, and the other stays behind (the fork in being's road is being alive or dead).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-9112053330760331222013-06-03T22:36:29.030-07:002013-06-03T22:36:29.030-07:00If the path leads straight from life to death, the...If the path leads straight from life to death, there is no fork, just a single one-way path. But Dickinson definitely meets a fork at the point where she can't return to life. Not being able to return the way you have come does not constitute a fork. The fork is ahead of her: two possibilities after life (life at this stage is no longer a possibility).<br /><br />A fork that leads in either case to a joyful encounter with God seems a bit pointless. "It would be odd to see god at the gates of hell" - maybe not so odd for Dickinson.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-26796616015925787942013-06-03T03:07:16.630-07:002013-06-03T03:07:16.630-07:00I also agree with Anonymous and your later comment...I also agree with Anonymous and your later comment, and see the point about the fork being about "Life/Death" instead of "Heaven/Hell." <br /><br />"Retreat - was out of Hope -" can be read in one of two ways: (1) as denial (someone who has recently experienced loss of a love one expresses denial and looks back at the life of that loved one--"out of hope" the individual gleams beautiful memories of a shared past; (2) "out of Hope-" the individual who has now passed on, and there is no hope of return (this works as the next line refers to a sealed route).<br /><br />It's slightly interesting that Emily Dickinson ends the second stanza on a dash. So, if you read<br /><br />Before — were Cities — but Between —<br />The Forest of the Dead —<br /><br />as stating that "Before" the two individuals were separated between cities (or space), and then separated between "the forest of the Dead -" (between the space between the living and the dead?). She does not mention reunion. The stanza interrupted with a dash maybe suggests that something is yet to come (if between is read as a adjective relating to time instead of a space), but what is not written.Zefirinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826052577521342639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-26363093100099586982013-06-02T21:43:14.262-07:002013-06-02T21:43:14.262-07:00Hadn't heard that song for a long time! I can ...Hadn't heard that song for a long time! I can see how the poem reminds you of it, with a woman in every window...<br />:) Thanks!<br />SusanSusan Kornfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-44842072100277983562013-06-02T21:36:31.721-07:002013-06-02T21:36:31.721-07:00I added a note to the commentary directing readers...I added a note to the commentary directing readers to comments.Susan Kornfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-69279876658357344302013-06-02T21:33:39.655-07:002013-06-02T21:33:39.655-07:00It is true that my reading depends on the "Fo...It is true that my reading depends on the "Fork in Being's Road," perhaps depending too much upon it. I like your reading -- and the more I think about it, the more I like the "God -- at every Gate" as an indication that there are, as you say, no wrong turns. <br /> You interpretation also makes more sense in terms of the cities. Yes, overall I quite think you have the better sense of it. Thank you.Susan Kornfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05384011972647144453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4029797379711350813.post-59116641776910282762013-06-02T19:20:00.330-07:002013-06-02T19:20:00.330-07:00Dylan probably wasn't thinking of Dickinson, b...Dylan probably wasn't thinking of Dickinson, but this poem reminds me of Dylan's Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest. <br /><br />“I’m gonna start my pickin’ right now<br />Just tell me where you’ll be”<br />Judas pointed down the road<br />And said, “Eternity!”<br /><br />“Eternity?” said Frankie Lee<br />With a voice as cold as ice<br />“That’s right,” said Judas Priest, “Eternity<br />Though you might call it ‘Paradise’”<br /><br />Later, when Frankie goes there, it is described:<br /><br />He just stood there staring<br />At that big house as bright as any sun<br />With four and twenty windows<br />And a woman’s face in ev’ry one<br /><br />The 24 earthly hours turning into windows in an eternal house as bright as the sun is something Dickinson might imagine. She probably wouldn't also imagine it in terms of a brothel with a woman's face in each of those windows, however. Or perhaps she might.<br /><br /><br />Davidnoreply@blogger.com